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All posts by hj (186)

topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #1
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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Quote by turnermm:
Its a community that centers around a core group of developers.  If the community were interested in 'modernity', there would be more of what you are looking for. 

So you're saying the community and/or the developers are not interested in modernity?  Well, fair enough - they are, as you say, not beholden to shareholders, it is their prerogative.

But that's not really the point. Dokuwiki may not be a commercial product, but it nevertheless exists and has a position within an enormous market place, the world wide web, surrounded by thousands of competing softwares, a place of unstoppable trends and momentum, not just in function but also in design. Would any producer displaying and promoting their product in such a market place, and wishing for its continued success and uptake, ignore their 'shop window'?

To be honest, your comments surprise me. For a community within such an exciting, fizzing, rapidly evolving marketplace not to be interested in 'modernity' is odd, to say the least.

As a matter of fact I'm not a person who advocates change for change's sake, nor art for art's sake.  But we all, I'm sure, look at the world wide web every day. And we see dazzling designs and improvements to not only the functionality but the appearance of web sites. So much so that the average person expects excellence as a given, as a norm. This billowing cloud of development and progress surrounds us all, we can't not be affected by it...if only to say "oh look, the BBC has changed the design of its sports pages again". We may not always wish to move with the times, but we are swept along all the same.

Don't get me wrong - I've said and continue to say that I think Dokuwiki as a wiki is pretty wonderful, and I admire anyone or any group who can produce such a thing, and let us have it for free. (and in this I include all the voluntary advice you have given to many of us, thank you.)  But if the community has no interest in developing DW's position or offering, then DW will remain just what it is - a novel piece of wiki software of limited use unless you're a developer.

Personally, I think that's missing a trick.
This post was edited on 2019-10-09, 16:37 by hj.
topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #2
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67463
Myron, thanks for the heads up on those.

I had already looked at the 'Dokuwiki as a lightweight CMS page', and it does have some useful tips.  As regards the examples of sites, however, the two which look in any way 'modern', astro and kling-dach, no longer use dokuwiki, see the source code.  The ones which do still use dokuwiki look, I'm afraid, rather old fashioned. Functional perhaps, but they don't get the heart beating.

The same page references two templates, dockucms and mcz.  MCZ hasn't been updated since 2010 (Windows 7 was just being introduced!).  And dokucms looks....well, rather dull in my opinion; functional, I'm sure, and perhaps adaptable in the hands of a CSS whizz. But out of the box I'd never use it.
There's a list of sites using dokucms at the bottom of the template page - but picking three sites at random and glimpsing their source code also shows they don't use dokuwiki any more, they have moved on.

I've no doubt that Dokuwiki is, or should be, amongst the top wiki engines.  As a wiki I've no qualms about using it and recommending it to anyone, top dog for me. But your referenced article was from 2014. And as ach has suggested, maybe wikis are on the wane?

But I think what both ach and myself are getting at, borne out by some of my observations above, is that dokuwiki as a CMS or web site (as opposed to wiki) just hasn't taken off; because A) the templates are outdated, and B) there's no real movement to promote DW for other uses. Yet as Andi's splitbrain.org site shows, there are exciting possibilities for DW in non-wiki uses.

One of the things I appreciate about dokuwiki is that the resource site, dokuwiki.org, doesn't throw away old code. Early templates, early plugins...they're all still there, available for those who want them.  Too many software sites these days hide their legacy releases in obscure archives, or simple don't mention them. So kudos to DW.

But the downside of this is there is little separation of the new, modern and fresh from the positively dusty and historic (and may not work!)  And the dokuwiki.org home page hasn't changed in....how many years?

I just sense that a refresh of dokuwiki would be timely, a repositioning, perhaps. The web is changing fast.  And if there were three priority things to do, I would...

1. Overhaul the dokuwiki site to make it more colourful and appealing
2. Get some more modern templates and some uptodate examples of dokuwiki in use (sites that 'wow' people!)
3. Weed out or grade templates and plugins so that modern currency clearly comes to the surface and shines

Just my two penn'orth!
topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #3
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67443
cziehr, sorry for late reply and many thanks for sharing the code from your homepage.  I'll save that code, if I may, and perhaps give it a go on my localhost site to see how it works (and learn something in the process!) I could not have written that CSS to save my life!

There are things already I don't understand!...

  • Your header html has a div class "logoheader"...but no declaration in your user styles?
  • Why are you putting the header.html file in the conf folder? And why is the <?php not closed?
  • How is your header.html called into the dokuwiki template? (presumably you have to amend main.php...??)

It looks very simple and I will try it our.  But you see how humble my understanding is!  :scared:

Thank you.
topic: Bootstrap-3 - LESS is more!  in the forum: General Help and Support Templates and Layout
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hj #4
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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Subject: Bootstrap-3 - LESS is more!
I'm experimenting with Bootstrap-3, but cannot find where to change the font sizes.  There's a myriad of LESS files and I'm utterly lost in them.

Using the 'Superhero' bootswatch theme, links in my sidebar are considerably smaller than the body text size, and a different font.  And, oddly enough, any text placed in <column>s (using columns plugin) is also smaller with links a different colour than in the sidebar! There appears to be no style rule in the columns plugin that stipulates font size.

On the other hand, if I change to the 'Simplex' bootswatch theme, all fonts and colors are consistent between body copy, columns and sidebar.

I can't find in the Forest of Less where to change these rules - I can't see the wood for the trees!

HELP!!!  :'(
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topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #5
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67432
ach, thanks for the comments.

I think perhaps you're right, or at least I can understand why you think I'm wrong to suggest most templates are for wikis. I guess it's because I see their design as very 'utilitarian' and, yes, pretty outdated in many instances. But yes, even those old templates could be used just for web sites. Criticism accepted.

I must read more about your push for more modern templates - I couldn't agree more about their need.  Perhaps you're right in saying that wikis are also on the wane - a lovely idea that has had its day, perhaps? But I still think the underlying engine is still quite powerful, it's just that its outward appearance doesn't exactly set the pulse racing. If wikis are on the downslope, then perhaps all the more reason to repurpose dokuwiki as a simple web site/cms builder - and give the template shop a spring clean.

Ref. your question to me about the default template:  No, I'm perfectly happy with the default template for wiki use. In fact it works best, for my wiki purposes, of all the various templates I've tried, I think it's a great job. I wouldn't be so happy with it for web site use because I think it's design is utilitarian, which is not to say it's bad but that it's built for purpose.  But if I wanted dokuwki to be the engine for my own web site, I would want a much more personalised and different look for the front end. I guess it's why Wordpress has thousands of themes, to give users a chance of something different and unique (well, almost!)

So in a nutshell I agree with you, I think there's a need for more modern templates for dokuwiki. Responsive designs which have a variety of layout options and greater typographical freedom.  If I had the a coder's brain and skills, I'd be churning these templates out!
topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #6
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67433
cziehr, thanks for the link - that is a nice little site you've got going there!  Was it just CSS tweaks, or has the PHP (main.php) been changed also?  I'm intrigued how you posted the wide photo at the top - but it looks very good.  These types of 'variation-on-a-theme' are just that kind of thing that would be good to share with the DW community - could bring a lot of knowledge to those of us who are less code-savvy.

You're right, it's not too wiki-like, perhaps my judgement was a bit harsh. It is, if you don't mind me saying, fairly 'utilitarian' - that's no bad thing (I quite like clean, simple designs), but I would guess that the designers of the default DW template had a utilitarian intention, to present information clearly and cleanly  - they were designing a template primarily for wiki use, it would be quite odd if they weren't!

But you'll agree that your site still has very much a dokuwiki 'look' - as it must do using the standard template. It's a world away from Andi's splitbrain.org site with it's colourful freedom. So I think, to echo ach's comment, we are lacking modern templates - and perhaps lacking some guidance on how the avergae Joe (like me!) can create one.
topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #7
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67426
Thanks for those suggestions ach.  And thanks, Myron, for the Flat tip.

Yes, I have looked at nearly all the screenshots for nearly all templates!  In the past I downloaded several of these and tried them out on my localhost installation...with mixed results and enthusiasm.

I decided to try again and downloaded the ones you (both) mentioned.

flat - perhaps the best effort at a modern look, and responsive.
minml-blog - not responsive
persnl10 - not responsive
ramtop - responsive, worth a further look; it's simple so it's CSS may be easy-ish to understand!
taratasy - responsive, but awkward old-fashioned look - may be worth further investigation, though
twenty-fifteen - disastrous!... displayed only my sidebar (used in the default dokuwiki template) and NO pages were visible at all.  The biggest issue was that there was no visible link to admin to go and undo the template selection!!

It should be mentioned that none, repeat NONE, of the aforementioned templates displayed my site logo....which displays fine in the default dokuwiki template.

So on the whole I would say there are two feasible templates for web site use. It doesn't really advocate for dokuwiki as anything other than a wiki, imo.  This seems a shame, because as the splitbrain.org site demonstrates, very nice and stylish web sites can be built with dokuwiki (and some of its plugins). 

Of course, I do realise that this is opensource software - and I am eternally grateful to those who can do what I cannnot do: envision and execute practical solutions in software design.  But knowing the potential of a powerful piece of software like dokuwiki, it's frustrating to see its limited application in a niche (small personal web sites/cms) where it could, I'm sure, have a larger following.

But I can see I'm wishing on a star!  

So I will try and dissect some of the internals of a couple of those templates and see if I can get my head around the essential components of dokuwiki for web site use. Maybe I'll get there in the end!
topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #8
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67422
Hi ach,

No!  That's just the point, most of the templates look like wikis, unsurprisingly.  But you look at Andi's site splitbrain.org and it looks nothing like a wiki....yet is powered by one.
topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #9
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67418
Hi Andi,

Thanks for the reply and the links - useful.  I may, when time allows, have a go at combining those two pages into one.

There are certainly some useful tips in those pages - but I fear (for me, at least) there is no 'guide' as to how to make a simple web site.  As I mentioned in my post, a lot of educated coders (!) may think this is 'obvious' and 'easy' - but for the average user, without coding skills, it is not easy at all.  I would not even have any idea how to make a template!... and less idea still how to style a template with CSS!  A horizontal menu?....how do I do that? etc. etc.

If I was able to download the template and CSS files for splitbrain.org, then I would have a chance (maybe!) of understanding how a web site template is made.  Now, I don't expect you to release your copyrighted work!  But it is an example of a 'live', current dokuwiki powered web site, that meets modern standards and expectations, and which is responsive - exactly what we need!  But it isn't even in the list!.... https://www.dokuwiki.org/dokuinstall

If there was a 'basic website kit' with a simple template and CSS file, and brief notes on how dokuwiki is used for such a design, then I feel I could move along much quicker.  Indeed, I'd be happy to experiment with real designs. I don't expect everything to be done for me, but I'm basically a user, not a coder. People like me need a head start!

I'm attaching some very rudimentary outline designs of simple web page structures. If one (or all) of these was made into simple templates, then it could encourage idiots like me to get into using dokuwiki for web sites. It would take me weeks, months, even years to code the necessary files. For some people amongst our brethren it would probably take just a few hours.

Is it possible?....

(p.s. one thing I am good at (!) is writing guides to help simpletons (like myself) to understand and operate what is otherwise complex technology. I have done this for a living. I'd be more than happy, and interested, to make such a guide if and when I get to understand it myself!  :-D )
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topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #10
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67416
Hi Lars,

Thanks for the link.  Interesting to look at.

Unfortunately, there are not many instances of dokuwiki used for normal web sites/cms.  And of the few that are listed, most of them no longer use dokuwiki!  Not surprisingly, they have moved on to other platforms which are more feature rich (and responsive). 

This doesn't negate the usefulness of dokuwiki for simple web sites, not at all. But it does mean the example list is well out of date!  ;-)
topic: Dokuwiki powered websites  in the forum: General Help and Support General Stuff
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hj #11
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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Subject: Dokuwiki powered websites
I'm a fan of dokuwiki as a wiki - I'm huffing and puffing my way towards creating what I hope will be a very useful group wiki.

But my question here is how can people use Dokuwiki to power websites, in the more conventional sense, i.e.brochure-ware, not collaborative sites. I'd love to see some more examples of web sites 'powered by dokuwiki'.

My curiosity over this was aroused when I looked at Andi's own site, https://www.splitbrain.org/blog - I thought it a really nice little site, stylish, clean, simple and fast.  But how did he make it?

Well, maybe that question is easy to answer - Andi's got a lot more code prowess and knowledge than I possess!  :-D   But then I also thought it would be good to know more on HOW to make a website like Andi's. And do templates exist? Or can there be a website section on the dokuwiki.org site where tools and guides to make websites are available? And a special section in the forum?

I know a lot of people here have more understanding and capabilities in code than I have, and they may see this as a rather  pointless question because making a website in dokuwiki is 'easy' or 'obvious'.  But to me, a humble user, it's not! and I would like to know as I see a lot of potential to increase the attraction of Dokuwiki if its use can be extended (promoted?) to more conventional internet use.

Ideas or thoughts on this welcome.

Hugh
topic: Bureaucracy - image upload and display  in the forum: General Help and Support Plugins
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hj #12
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67395
Well, I've kind of solved this myself, but with the previous help of user 'pop' - thanks, pop.

As previously mentioned, the form code for uploading a file is:

fieldset
file "Upload file" !

In my usage, I actually want three upload functions, so the code is:

fieldset
file "Upload file 1" !
file "Upload file 2" !
file "Upload file 3" !

This produces three upload 'buttons' if you like to call them that (browse for the file you want to upload and then submit it). All good, and in use the file(s) get uploaded to the media folder.

After a lot of experimentation, I found this was the necessary code to use in the template in order to display a link to the uploaded file - in my case I need lines for, potentially, 3 uploaded files:

**Attachment:** {{@@Upload file 1@@?linkonly}}\\
**Attachment:** {{@@Upload file 2@@?linkonly}}\\
**Attachment:** {{@@Upload file 3@@?linkonly}}\\

That works fine if you select and upload a file.  If, however, you only wanted to upload one file, but your form has three upload buttons, that means two upload functions are not utilised. But they are still part of the template code.  This results in a rather ugly 'null' link in the form of a typical wiki link to a page not yet created.  (see image)

It's understandable why this happens, I guess, but it's just not what you really want to see!  I experimented with putting..
|none
..in various locations inside and outside the link, but could never get a satisfactory result.  For the timebeing I'll live with the ugly null links, but if anyone (author?) knows of a better, cleaner way of not displaying links where no file has been uploaded, I'd love to know.

Hope this helps others.

Hugh
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topic: Bureaucracy - image upload and display  in the forum: General Help and Support Plugins
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hj #13
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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Subject: Bureaucracy - image upload and display
Using Bureaucracy I've got a form which includes a file upload for images. Form code is...

fieldset
file "Upload file" !

This works fine and uploads a file to media.

But there's no example on the Bureaucracy plugin page of how to code the template/placeholder to call an uploaded file, either as a link to or actual display of the image.

Using **Upload file** as a placeholder doesn't work. So what code or syntax should be used?

Hugh
topic: Bureaucracy - upload images  in the forum: General Help and Support Plugins
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hj #14
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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Subject: Bureaucracy - upload images
I've got myself in a right tangle with uploading images via my form - I'm sure I did this before, but can't remember how and nothing I do is working.

I've coded a couple of file upload boxes into my form, the fieldset code for this is:

fieldset
file "Upload file" !
file "Upload file" !

This displays as per attached pic. All good.

Where I'm really stuck is how to code the template so that it displays either...
1. a clickable link to open the file, or...
2. a thumbnail of the file (say 100px wide)

You'd think the placeholder might be just **files:** @@Upload file@@ but that doesn't work.  'pop' also helped me with this months ago and suggested **files:** {{@@Upload file@@?linkonly}}\\ .... but that doesn't work either, at least not now.

I notice that when I submit my form, image files are uploaded to the media manager. - e.g  media:triparchives:underground:2019-09-01-daniels_cave_area:deepintherainforest.jpg
While my form content creates a page at pages:triparchives:underground:2019-09-01-daniels_cave_area

Are my file uploads even being sent to the right place?

I've got myself in a muddle, any help appreciated!
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topic: bureaucracy - save form in dokuwiki  in the forum: General Help and Support Plugins
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hj #15
Member since Apr 2008 · 186 posts · Location: Lancaster, UK
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In reply to post ID 67047
In your dokuwiki Admin, open Access Control Lists.  Make sure your users (whatever group is submitting your forms) have UPLOAD permissions for the namespace to which you are sending the submissions.

I don't know what your file/folder structure is like, but I traced my similar problem to my user group not having UPLOAD permissions to the namespace where my form submissions are held.
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